Join Cameron Ivey and Gabe Gumbs from Spirion as they talk with K Royal about the privacy concerns when working from home along with how employers must balance the privacy rights of their employees amid the CV-19 crisis.
Highlights Include:
- Comments on the article Employers Face Privacy Balancing Act In Coronavirus Fight by Allison Grande at Law 360
- The practice of “sick-shaming” and how many employers now want employees to stay home from work
- Answering the question, “Can employers really take my temperature at the door?”
- Which U.S. laws might protect workers amid coronavirus concerns?
- The data privacy risks of working from home now and after CV-19 concerns fade
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Transcript:
Cameron Ivey:
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to privacy please. I’m your host, Cameron Ivy, and with me is my cohost Gabe Gumbs, and we have a very special guest on today. Her name is K Royal and K, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell the listeners what you do.
K Royal:
Oh, beautiful. Thank you so much Cameron and Gabe for letting me join your podcast. My name is K Royal. I am a global privacy attorney. I work for TrustArc, one of the world’s oldest privacy companies, and I’m still thrilled over the fact that we acquired Nymity, so I’m going to slip that in. Before I became a privacy officer though, I was a registered nurse. A lot of people think that moving from nursing into law was a weird move. To me, it was very natural, but what was even more natural was not only did I move into being a lawyer, I moved into privacy. Now I’m the associate general counsel of TrustArc and I absolutely love what I do.
Cameron Ivey:
It’s super interesting. I mean obviously I don’t know how normal it is for someone to move from the medical field to law like you did, but you said it was pretty natural.
K Royal:
Yes, for me, because families are probably not aware of a lot of the legal issues that occur at the hospital when they’re not there with their loved ones or when their loved ones may be asleep or not fully awake and alert of everything, and it just terrifies me, some of the things that I saw.
Cameron Ivey:
Yeah, I think it would terrify most.
K Royal:
Yes. What you don’t know is good sometimes.
Cameron Ivey:
Right? Exactly. So, we wanted to get into the topic on here around obviously privacy, because Privacy Please, the Coronavirus is a big thing right now. I know everybody’s probably like, “Let’s stop talking about it,” but this is something that I think is very important because right now there’s a lot of companies that are asking their employers to work from home that aren’t normally a work from home type of ordeal, so let’s kind of dive into that. We have an article that was written by Alison Grande. It’s the Employers Face Privacy Balancing Act In Coronavirus Fight. Let’s kind of dive into this. I know Gabe, you had a question to start us off. Let’s roll with that.
Gabe Gumbs:
I did, and this is the perfect guest to have this conversation with. So welcome to the show.
K Royal:
Thank you.
Gabe Gumbs:
The plug on Nymity is not the bad bit at all. I’ve been a fan of both organizations for a while, and on top of that we’ve actually been working with your organization over the last few months to do some really cool things together to help both of our customers in the privacy space, so this is all very fortuitous. But the topic at hand is very topical and we like to keep the show focused on things that are actually affecting people’s day to day in their privacy. This balance between privacy that employers are facing is a real one in a couple of senses. There is the very personal medical side of this coin and there’s also the technology side of the coin.
Gabe Gumbs:
But first, I want to jump and dive into that medical side of it. There were some employers who had been taking what some may see as kind of drastic measures of checking their employees for fevers and checking their temperature upon coming to the workplace, which does feel a bit invasive.
K Royal:
[inaudible 00:03:21].
Gabe Gumbs:
Yeah, I think so. But on the other end of spectrum, you have just the basic employees asking additional personal questions about their employees’ health. Employers ask the employees about their health just to try and get a handle and assess the situation and maybe give some advice as to whether they should or shouldn’t come into the office and all of these types of things. Now, most privacy regulations to my knowledge, and reading Allison’s article here, do make some very specific carve-outs for what information an employer can collect, in terms of medical information on an employee. Again, although you are a lawyer, we should probably give the caveat, they should go talk to their own legal counsel.
K Royal:
Exactly. Just because you’re listening to me, doesn’t make me your attorney.
Gabe Gumbs:
Exactly. But just some general advice for both employers and employees about where the lines in the sands are, should be, just kind of general advice there for the listeners.
K Royal:
Oh absolutely, and I think the article was wonderful and I think you stated y’all plan to put the link in the description for the podcast, which is really good. There’s a lot of articles coming out around the Coronavirus and working situations, because not only do you have to take into account the working professionals, attorneys, privacy officers, executives that may be in a position to work remote, but what about those employees that are not in a position to work remote? I’ve seen this going around in a lot of forums such as receptionists. Your receptionists really can’t do their work unless they’re at the office. I’ve seen compromises such as, well let’s get the receptionist a dedicated cell phone and let’s forward all the incoming messages there, and we’ll just put a sign on the door that says we’re not open.
K Royal:
But there’s lots of other people who can’t do their work unless they’re actually at work. Most of these, you think of ones that are doing the physical work, such as stocking the shelves or working on the cars or the police officers that they actually have to be at the location to work. So in many cases, what are we looking at? This brings up several different points. I love the article, but your point about checking employees when they come into work, how many times have we fallen into the sick shaming work ethic, where someone stays at home because they’re coughing or because they’re running a fever or because they don’t feel well and we’re like, “Well, unless you’re dying you need to be sitting at your desk.” Right? Well now people are dying.
Gabe Gumbs:
Literally dying. It’s true.
K Royal:
Literally dying.
Gabe Gumbs:
You pull on that thread a little bit more and extend it even further. Then there are those, because it is still flu and cold season. So how much should an employer and/or an employee feel comfortable sharing with everyone else about their own current situation? If you come into work on Monday morning and you happen to cough, and quite frankly you probably didn’t get tested because as we understand it, there’s just not enough tests to go around…
K Royal:
And the tests we have, don’t work.
Gabe Gumbs:
Don’t work. There’s equally some limitations on just how much of your own personal health you should feel obligated to share with others.
K Royal:
Right, and frankly there aren’t privacy laws in place that prevent employers from asking, in the United States. Let’s be clear, in the United States, that prevent employers for asking about an employee’s health. There are laws that prevent them from asking about their family members’ health, the Genetic Information and Nondiscrimination Act. I believe it was passed in 2008. That prevents them from asking about genetic issues, which would be your family’s health. But asking about your health directly, I think the closest we would be able to knock it under would be workers’ compensation, which brings up a whole different issue than what was talked about in the article that if you do get sick because someone at work was sick, is that workers’ compensation?
Gabe Gumbs:
Ooh. That’s a great question [crosstalk 00:07:33] this virus in particular is forcing things like self-quarantining and even mandatory quarantining, and I think my memory is… I heard it on the radio this morning. I think I was listening to an NPR article and they were talking about passing some temporary relief in terms of unemployment benefits for those who do contract the virus. So you do bring up another good point which is, where are those lines between things like compensation and worker’s comp, and if, based on these health concerns, folks have to be furloughed or anything, what kind of legal protections are in place to both protect someone’s privacy? Because again, with the health shaming, you may be one of those unfortunate folks to contract it, but you may not want everyone to know about your health situation.
K Royal:
What if it’s your spouse that contracts it or your children that contract it, or frankly your children are out of school because the schools are closed? There’s a lot of things related to Coronavirus that we’re all having to manage, and it all comes down to different levels of privacy. I saw an article put out from the Education this morning about FERPA and Coronavirus in Universities and schools that are closing or taking emergency actions, and what can and can’t do when it comes to health care.
Gabe Gumbs:
That is so interesting. FERPA is a great regulation to bring up in this conversation. We have a healthy association with the higher ed community. They’ve been in the Spirion family for quite some time, and they’re rather well-experienced with regards to collecting, processing and protecting the health information of their students. But I’m willing to bet that this raises some new challenges that even those organizations have not had to face yet, least of which is the housing of these students. There are a lot of privacy issues around, for example, just reporting housing information to the census around students cause FERPA protects a lot of that information, and Corona is probably going to equally complicate that. I don’t know if the WHO attempts to collect this type of information for their own analysis and benefit as well, but I’m sure FERPA has something to say about that also.
K Royal:
Right, and when you start thinking about school, then you also start thinking about your teenagers, and some teenagers start college earlier than 18, but you think about your teenagers at college who may be exposed. Here where I live, we have Arizona State University who has been very active in protecting students, but was one of the first Coronaviruses in the United States with a student at ASU that tested positive for it. So what would you do as a parent if your 17, 18, heck, let’s be honest, your 21 year old is away at college across the nation and you need to do something to take care of them because they have no one there? Does that mean you take off from work and then how do you get there with the travel?
Cameron Ivey:
It’s a tough situation indeed.
Gabe Gumbs:
It’s the same exact example, if they start closing all these schools, think about all the mothers and others that work in the hospitals and stuff like that, or in jobs where they don’t get paid salary and they have to work to make money, but they’re forced to stay home to watch their kids cause nobody can watch them. It just raises so many other issues as well.
K Royal:
Absolutely. It crosses so many different legal lines, but as we started the conversation with privacy lines, because you got employees that need to be at work because the situation requires that you want first responders on the job, you want medical personnel on the job, but you really don’t want to have to go see any of them with any of this going on.
Cameron Ivey:
Yeah. I have a question I want to challenge you both on. For the listeners, anyone that’s just trying to learn or what they can do, what do you think the possible liabilities resulting from oversharing personal information related to the virus may be or could be?
Gabe Gumbs:
Well, I’ll jump in there first and then I’ll let K cover the rest of it, as you start getting slightly out of my comfort zone when you talk about liabilities. Let me approach this as the person that would be on the other end of it that would be somewhat frustrated if I were in that scenario. At an absolute minimum, if that information will somehow impede my ability to gain employment in the future, that’s going to be problematic. If it somehow impedes my ability to not just gain employment but to maybe also gain health insurance because a preexisting condition of some sorts might come into play. Maybe this respiratory illness exacerbates something else. I can see all of those things having lasting effects, very long lasting effects on an individual. That’s just me looking at it through my own lens and thinking, man, how can this affect my life?
K Royal:
When you talk about the lasting effects, there are absolutely employers that will fire someone for not showing up to the job, regardless of the situation that’s going on. I saw a letter from an attorney, it was published on social media, and it’s a friend of a friend, that her husband is an immunocompromised person and the complications that she’s going through with him in the hospital that won’t test them, and her preschool child who is being forced to be quarantined, but they won’t test her because there’s no test available and she doesn’t meet the criteria to warrant one of the tests of gold that is out there that apparently really doesn’t work anyway.
K Royal:
It starts rolling from there. So you start looking at that and you start looking at the civil rights issues that we might see from this, the further legal complications we might see from this, the sick shaming that we’ve talked about, and then as I say the privacy issues that we’re getting if we talk about people working from home.
K Royal:
You’ve got two categories of employees, the ones that can, and the ones that can’t. There are employers that are making the news because they’re going to continue to pay employees that are not able to come to work. So I guess hourly employees that probably don’t have sick leave or something like that, they’re still paying them. I saw even one of them was willing to, I think it was Google, was willing to continue paying contractors even though they couldn’t come into work. So we have some that are stepping up and doing the right thing, but how long is that going to last?
K Royal:
We’ve already seen where small businesses are putting out of business because of all the canceled events, whether it’s… I’m in Comicon, so that’s a whole nother conversation for another time. I cosplay. But there’s a lot of Comicons and events that are being canceled that, a lot of small employers, that’s where they make their money.
Gabe Gumbs:
That’s so true.
K Royal:
People are saying you support your small businesses, buy gift cards now that you can use later when all this passes, but the money will still keep the businesses afloat. I don’t know that a lot of businesses are going to come out of this really well for this year. I don’t know that they’re going to go over completely, but I don’t know how well they’re going to come out of it this year.
Gabe Gumbs:
It’s certainly going to have some lasting economic effects. I think we’re seeing that right now across every industry I can think of, and there’s going to be trickle down effects of that across the board as events get canceled. We know that those events tend to support a lot of local communities in any number of ways. This is certainly going to hurt in no shortages of ways.
K Royal:
I was going to say, my husband’s opened a web development team and they’re going to start working from home come Monday, and this is the web development team. You don’t usually see them working from home.
Gabe Gumbs:
It’s interesting, because when I first started my career, those were exactly the types of people that you would see working from home.
K Royal:
And now you don’t.
Gabe Gumbs:
It’s a great transition into the next question that I had, though, at least topic, right? Which is, I am witnessing more organizations now telling their employees to work from home. I equally witnessed something that is very startling amongst… somewhat anecdotally but at least half a dozen organizations telling their employees to work from home. In some cases, these are not employees that are used to working from home, they don’t have work from home kind of structures, and so they’re telling them to work from home using their personal equipment, which is just blowing my mind. Right?
Gabe Gumbs:
That has so many challenges associated with it. This is largely a privacy focused conversation, so I don’t want to double click too far into the security aspect of it, but to say the least of one can’t have privacy without security. These machines, these laptops, these desktops that folks are going to work on from home, so now they’re going to have access to sensitive information, and what controls are in place there? I have no idea.
K Royal:
Exactly. That’s the thing. Maybe there’s people that are used to working with laptops, but maybe they’re not accustomed to working with laptops at home. So you don’t have the same setup with the multiple monitors, with the speakers and the microphones. Maybe you’re not accustomed to using… oh, what do you call it? The remote meeting tools like Zoom.
K Royal:
So that’s probably what I’ve seen come out from a lot of employers is making sure… and I’ve gotten this from the university, because I’m an adjunct professor, and I’ve gotten this from my employer as well and I’m on the board of a nonprofit so I’ve gotten communication from them as well. Do you know how to use remote meeting technology? Is it installed on your computer and do your speakers and microphone work? Do you have the setup at home you need to work, including VPN?
K Royal:
Do you have access to the information you need to do your work? Especially if you’re a person that’s accustomed to working with paper forms. Do you have a setup at home to be able to work with paper? Are you accustomed to working with digital documents? Same thing for digital signing. If you have to sign things, do you have a digital signing technology that you’re capable of using? Can you get into the shared drive for your company through a VPN or protected work? Frankly, do your managers know how to reach you? Do they have your actual cell phone numbers and perhaps the cell phone numbers of your closest family members in case they can’t reach you and there is something going on? I haven’t really got that question, but I’ve seen where that question has been asked and that to me crosses a few privacy lines.
Gabe Gumbs:
That crosses more than a few privacy lines. Something else that really stands out to me listening to that list of questions, I’m thinking to myself, and is this a shared resource at home? So will someone else in your family have access to this machine? Because if you [inaudible 00:18:46] the healthcare industry or any industry, you’ve got access to Gabe Gumbs’ sensitive information, then you’re not working on this on your home machine where anyone else is sitting down in front of it. Also, randomly browsing the web or God forbid clicking on random links, and going to websites that may compromise their machines. I am currently, as I sit here right now, very, very nervous about what information of mine is now on any number of untold personal home machines.
K Royal:
Oh, well you’ve seen the Coronavirus map virus, right?
Gabe Gumbs:
I have not. Tell me more.
K Royal:
There is a map going around. I shared it on Facebook. I think I may have shared it on LinkedIn yesterday. There is a website going around. I’m looking for it right now, because it is a website that will track the Coronavirus, mapping it, about where are the highest ones around the nation, but it’s a virus.
Gabe Gumbs:
Wow. I see it. I’m looking at the map right now. CoronaMap.org. CoronaMap.org.
Cameron Ivey:
On its own website.
Gabe Gumbs:
Yeah. Let’s overlay this map with where all of my sensitive data just traveled to, cause that’s what just happened.
Cameron Ivey:
For people that are listening, and maybe I just feel a little out of the loop. So when you refer to the term, your own personal computer, are you talking about your own personal network at home, or are you talking about actually using your own laptop and not bringing your work laptop home with you? Why wouldn’t they bring their work home with them? That’s where I’m a little confused.
Gabe Gumbs:
The answer to that question is, so again, some of the organizations that I’m talking about that I have firsthand knowledge of, they use desktops in the workplace. So they didn’t issue laptops. There were no laptops issued.
Gabe Gumbs:
They’re sending them home to work, and now part of the good news for the employers, I guess, in this digital age, a lot of data can be accessed by a SAS application. You can get to your email via 0365 and whatever else… all of your other productivity tools. You may not even need to VPN into an org, but now accessing all of those resources from your own personal machine becomes very problematic.
Gabe Gumbs:
Let’s take the inverse of that. Let’s say you are using the work supplied laptop. I still see a large challenge here in so much that now you’re going to have folks that are going to be working from home for some extended period of time, and they’re going to be accessing data that they very well may not have while they’re at home, because there’s a big difference between going home and finishing working on a report, versus working 40 hours a week from home. Yeah, now you’re in this environment where, I don’t know what you’ve got connected IoT devices to your home network. Who knows? Attackers are notorious for finding opportunity in chaos, and this level is going to breed a whole lot of opportunity.
K Royal:
Yes, absolutely. I agree because, one, Cameron, you work in a tech field. There are still employers out there who don’t provide laptops.
Cameron Ivey:
That’s very true.
K Royal:
Let that sink in for a second.
Cameron Ivey:
Being 2020, I guess I just assumed, and that’s just me not really realizing that there are probably plenty of companies where they only use desktops. I don’t think I’ve ever been at a job where that was the case, at least for me, so it just opens my eyes, that’s for sure.
K Royal:
It really is.
Gabe Gumbs:
It’s anecdotal, but two of the organizations that I’m speaking of that I have first hand knowledge of, they actually sell technology. It’s not like it’s some antiquated or… It’s not Joe’s Mechanic Shop. No offense to Joe’s Mechanic, but actually, every mechanic I know these days has a laptop, because that’s how you have to work on modern cars. [crosstalk 00:22:38]
K Royal:
[inaudible 00:22:38] me connect to your car remotely and fix what ails it, right?
Gabe Gumbs:
Sure. It does introduce a whole number of challenges. Let’s double click into this even further. A couple months from now, hopefully life’s back to complete normalcy, whatever that looks for all of us. What happens to all that sensitive data that was left behind that people were working on in these machines?
K Royal:
Is anyone going to go back through their machine and scour any data they downloaded to work during this time period that they normally wouldn’t have on their machines, and particularly thinking about HR data?
Gabe Gumbs:
Yeah.
K Royal:
They can download. They probably would not typically download it onto a laptop, but maybe they really do need to work with it. Some resources are already starting to get scarce. We’re already starting to see some of the overloaded internet capabilities. Believe it or not, we are. So maybe they’re downloading it to their machine, and it’s offline so they can continue to work on it. Is anyone going to think to go back through and scrub those machines?
Gabe Gumbs:
That’s my question.
K Royal:
If they’re traveling and heaven forbid if they’re quarantined, are they still working? Do they have their laptop? Are they pulling information in through a network that’s not protected?
Cameron Ivey:
Highly likely.
Gabe Gumbs:
I can’t believe that this pandemic is upon us at the moment. I mean I can, I can believe it, but it’s hard for me to get my head around just what the privacy impact here really is, because for all of my guessing at how bad this problem is going to be, we’re not going to know the real extent of this privacy problem for months, maybe even longer, but [crosstalk 00:24:26]
K Royal:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So the bigger question about can your employers ask if you’re sick? Oh absolutely. Can they get intrusive and take your temperature as you come in the door?
Cameron Ivey:
No.
K Royal:
That’s a little bit far, but okay. If you were in another country, would it be okay? Probably not. It depends on what country you’re in. If you were in Europe, that’s probably a bit far. The exceptions for reasons of public health probably don’t carry too far into private employers. But, on the other hand, the CDC, the World Health Organization, they need to be able to track people who are sick, and we already know that they’re tracking people through social media. They’re alerting to Twitter storms or any mentions on Facebook as to having certain symptoms, and trying to figure out how to identify those individuals in order to try to control the disease spread.
Gabe Gumbs:
It is an interesting timeline we’re living in. I thought the privacy timeline was interesting enough, and then this comes along and just kind of adds further to it. I think what I’d like to share for those that are listening is, because if you’re listening to this, hopefully that means you care at all about privacy. You must. I hope you do if you’re tuned in.
Gabe Gumbs:
What I want is for everyone to be conscious of this fact, that the information that you hold, the information that you work on, that’s your information. That’s information about you, your friends, your colleagues, your coworkers. Just like all the information everyone else has. Hopefully you are taking the appropriate measures and/or alerting your employers that this is equally yet another area of concern that we do have to pay attention to.
K Royal:
Right, and that employers need to be paying attention to it.
Gabe Gumbs:
Indeed.
Cameron Ivey:
That’s for sure.
K Royal:
They may step over the line when it comes to trying to protect their company, but they may also not be considering the privacy protections they need on machines, and working remote in order to maintain business during this time, and then how do they protect that data? I want to point out, it’s not just personal data. This is a privacy podcast. We care about personal data. Absolutely. But what about your company’s trade secrets, and confidential corporate information that you don’t want getting out and getting shared anywhere?
Gabe Gumbs:
That’s a great point.
Cameron Ivey:
[inaudible 00:26:53]. I think the biggest mystery out of this whole thing is why they’re selling out of toilet paper. That’s the thing that I just don’t understand, I guess, but [crosstalk 00:00:27:08].
Gabe Gumbs:
[inaudible 00:27:07] actually. I encountered that earlier today and I’m like, but why?
K Royal:
Okay. But I have to ask you, have you had the thought that, no, I don’t need to go buy toilet paper in this panic, but wait a minute, everybody else is buying it. Am I going to have any?
Cameron Ivey:
Right, right, and now I’m really concerned because I got to go check my toilet paper now. I’ll see if I got enough for the next couple of weeks.
K Royal:
That was probably the privacy line that we had.
Gabe Gumbs:
That is the privacy line. That’s the TMI in the TP [crosstalk 00:27:41].
Cameron Ivey:
Yes, yes. I had to throw it in there. Sorry. We can kind of wrap things up, and this discussion could obviously go on for hours, but I’m really curious just I guess from both of your points, because you have different backgrounds, but what’s a good way for listeners, what’s a good way to game plan for something like this that we haven’t mentioned? Anything that we need to just kind of be on the lookout, any good simple practices that anyone should just take while they’re at home to keep themselves protected and private for their companies and for themselves?
Gabe Gumbs:
I think first, let’s start on just the human and health level, which is let’s just all be cautious of the hysteria. The toilet paper one, although it’s funny, it’s kind of a great example of that. We get into a bit of a mob mentality or a group think, and that actually becomes way more dangerous than the virus itself. The panic that [inaudible 00:28:43] dangerous, so let’s all take a breath and not panic, and make sure we’re taking the appropriate precautions.
Gabe Gumbs:
A lot of information has been shared via the CDC. I would visit their websites for absolute information. Stay in close contact with the folks at your employers and ensure that you understand what contingency plans and those game plans look like. Protect your own families first. Then on the privacy side of it, where you have some responsibilities to the data that you have and everything else, again, in this sense, I urge for a common sense approach first and foremost, and not lose sight of, once this is all said and done, it’s not going to be over.
Gabe Gumbs:
We do need to get back to the very difficult job of ensuring we’re protecting all this information, because health information in particular is so very sensitive, and it is so, so very pervasive in our lives already, and this is going to exacerbate that. I think most prudent advice I can give is, let’s start just with a little bit of common sense, and we’ll come back in some later episodes and then we’ll do a follow-up on what exactly folks can do to clean up behind this, if you would.
K Royal:
I like that very much, and I will just add a couple of points to that. One, if you’re going to go track what the virus is doing, please make sure you actually go to the CDC website, and don’t click on links. It may come across in social media or your email. This is a good heads up to companies to make sure that disaster recovery plan that they never thought they were going to have to enact actually covers something like this. They perhaps didn’t accommodate an epidemic taking their employers out of the workforce as one of their disaster recovery plans. Then the last note I will say, and Cameron, and I’ll turn it over to you for this, is that I did hear that the World Health Organization announced that dogs cannot contract the Coronavirus.
Cameron Ivey:
I heard that. I heard that.
K Royal:
They previously were held in quarantine. They’ve now been released, so let’s be clear. Who let the dogs out?
Cameron Ivey:
I love it. [crosstalk 00:30:57] That’s awesome. K, thank you so much for being on. This is awesome. I know you’re a speaker, you’re an author yourself, so is there anywhere that people can follow you or listen to you? Obviously we’re not going to have any events here anytime soon because of the pandemic, but anything that you want to say to anyone out there and the listeners, they can follow you and find you on social media.
K Royal:
Oh, thank you very much. I’m very easy to find. My first name really is one letter K, so it’s K Royal on LinkedIn, on Twitter and Instagram. I am on the Heart of Privacy, and then I actually host my company’s privacy podcast, which is Serious Privacy. So we all need a little serious privacy, please. Right? Please feel free. Don’t ever hesitate to reach out to me. I definitely believe in the transparency part of privacy.
Cameron Ivey:
Awesome. Thank you so much for your time, and we enjoyed it. Much appreciated.
Gabe Gumbs:
Thank you, K.
K Royal:
Thank you all for having me.
Cameron Ivey:
All right. Well stay safe everybody, and we’ll see you next time.
